Conservative Jews: Good news, bad news
Last week, an e-mail went out from one of my favorite traditional egalitarian Conservative minyanim in Manhattan--they needed someone to chant the haftarah ("prophetic reading"). I replied as soon as I saw it, "Ooh, may I, and may I lein (chant) my own maftir, too, pretty please?" With my unpredictable voice, the result of years of acid reflux, I haven't learned a new reading in at least two years, and was eager to chant a haftarah and Torah reading that I've known for decades.
I got my wish.
And something that I wouldn't have wished for.
Seventy-some people stayed after kiddush in the social hall of the synagogue that houses the aforementioned minyan to hear a guest speaker--and afterwards, not a single person thought to suggest that we davven Minchah (pray the Afternoon Service). So I ended up davvening solo in the chapel. This hurts, coming as I do from a dying congregation that has to beg for a minyan on a Shabbat (Sabbath) afternoon. :(
Judging by my own personal experience, Conservative Jews are all over the map, and that observation applies not only to laypeople, but to clergy, as well. I've encountered Conservative rabbis who wouldn't hesitate to hold a Seudah Shlishit (tradition "Third Meal" on Sabbath) not preceeded by Minchah, followed by a discussion and havdalah without benefit of Maariv (Evening Service). I've also encountered Conservative rabbis whose personal observance was barely distinguishable from that of Orthodox Jews. We Conservative Jews are a really decisive bunch, quoth she sarcastically.
I got my wish.
And something that I wouldn't have wished for.
Seventy-some people stayed after kiddush in the social hall of the synagogue that houses the aforementioned minyan to hear a guest speaker--and afterwards, not a single person thought to suggest that we davven Minchah (pray the Afternoon Service). So I ended up davvening solo in the chapel. This hurts, coming as I do from a dying congregation that has to beg for a minyan on a Shabbat (Sabbath) afternoon. :(
Judging by my own personal experience, Conservative Jews are all over the map, and that observation applies not only to laypeople, but to clergy, as well. I've encountered Conservative rabbis who wouldn't hesitate to hold a Seudah Shlishit (tradition "Third Meal" on Sabbath) not preceeded by Minchah, followed by a discussion and havdalah without benefit of Maariv (Evening Service). I've also encountered Conservative rabbis whose personal observance was barely distinguishable from that of Orthodox Jews. We Conservative Jews are a really decisive bunch, quoth she sarcastically.
posted by Shira Salamone at 12:42 PM
27 Comments:
what time did you finish davening and kiddush? it may have simply been too early to daven mincha. just a thought. you might be being too harsh on them.
JDub, I just checked Chabad.org's z'manim calendar (detailing required times when some actions have to take place), and Minchah Gedolah (earliest Minchah) for Manhattan last Shabbat was 12:35 pm. We were still enjoying a kiddush lunch at that hour. But I appreciate your attempt to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. "Dan l'kaf z'chut/judge everyone favorably" is a principle that I should be more scrupulous about observing.
Are you sure the host synagogue did not have a regular minchah scheduled for later in the afternoon, with seudah & maariv to follow? If its one of the UWS shuls, I was lead to believe that since the individual semi-independent minyanim don't bring back enough folks for Minchah, they do a single scheduled service.
I am aware of a number of C congs. in N.J. which always have a scheduled Minchah -- seudah -- Maariv. And they all get a minyan.
TOTJ Steve, it is, indeed, possible that that shul has a single Minchah/Seudah/Maariv scheduled for a later time. Thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious. I'll have to make further inquiries in the future.
Having been at that Shul for Seudah Shlishis a number of times over the years, Mincha & Maariv are generally done around the Seudah, and not between Kiddish and a Talk that immediately follows it. It is amazing to me that you apparently did not ask anyone who would know and just went to daven by your self in the chapel. If you had asked either someone would have told you when Mincha would be said or called together a minyan to daven with you at that time. You seem to allow very little deviation from your individual interpretation of practice.
"You seem to allow very little deviation from your individual interpretation of practice."
You have a point. A pretty sharp one. Touche. Not to mention "ouch."
In my defense, I must remind you that my local synagogue rarely gets more than 25 people on a Shabbat morning, and most of them are seniors who are afraid to leave their homes at night. Most of the year, when the earliest permissible time for Minchah is too late for us to hold Minchah right after kiddish, we don't get a minyan at all. I'm quite literally out of the habit of thinking that enough of the people who go home after kiddush will come back to make a minyan for Minchah. That's what happens when you belong to a dying congregation, and that's why we're so eager to move.
That said, I will make it a point to ask about Minchah the next time I davven at that synagogue on Shabbat. Thank you for calling to my attention what should have been obvious, which is that I should have made inquiries rather than assumptions.
"In my defense, I must remind you that my local synagogue rarely gets more than 25 people on a Shabbat morning"
And this is a dying congregation? I guess ours has been dead for some time, then. Of course, we don't even schedule a Shabbos Minchah, and our once a week weekday Shacharis minyan hasn't succeeded since the snow started. Saturday morning is the closest we have to a guaranteed minyan (I don't think we've ever had to skip the Torah service when I was there, but I'm not sure).
And yet, when we have "Tot Shabbat" (which I still instinctively read as Yiddish, not English ), our total attendance may top 30-40. Go figure. Does this mean there's hope?
I'm still not sure how it is we never bentsch after kiddush, though. It happened once in the last year that I saw. I thought that was one of those supposedly non-negotiable things dictated by USCJ.
Maybe things are just different in NYC...
If you went to the minyan I might be thinking of, many of the attendees go to another shul for mincha--many people there are active in more than one congregation. In manhattan, mincha is just before seudah slishit. They also rent the space for a fixed amount of time so they might not have had the time/money to schedule a full mincha with leyning.
What can I say, Geoffrey, other than that my husband, the acting rabbi (for lack of a better description), predicts that our shul will be in the same demographic boat as yours, minus the Tot Shabbat (kids? what kids?), by the time he and I move out in about a year and a half. :(
RivkaYael, wrong minyan--the one I attended is actually one of a number of minyanim all housed in the same synagogue building and all considering themselves part of that congregation.
Having Minchah before Seudah Shlishit is better suited to groups that can expect to get a minyan at that time than to a congregation such as ours, which *never* gets a minyan at that hour--once our members go home, almost none of them come back.
I've been to plenty of shuls both O and C, and in my experience the nearly universal custom is a late afternoon Mincha rather than a post-Kiddush mincha. In fact, I've only been to one shul in my life (the San Francisco Sephardic shul) that did the latter.
Woodrow, a late-afternoon Minchah was our local shul's minhag/custom also, until we got desperate for a minyan. Believe me, we're not doing this for fun. We have to practically beg people to stay after Kiddush for Minchah. :(
Shira,
As far as Conservative Jews being all over the map, more than one sociologist has commented, half joking, half not, that for the most part there is no such thing as a Conservative Jew, only Conservative synagogues/insitutions. An overwhelming majority of Conservative Jews have no idea what the theology/expectations of C Judaism are and the only reason they say that they are Conservative is because the temple they belong to is.
In the past there were more Conservative rabbis, but when the old guard died off, they were replaced be people who grew up Conservative in name only.
In fact, I know of several C synagogues that have rabbis with Reform ordination.
I have personally heard C rabbis say that the ONLY reason that they don't perform intermarriages or recognize patarlineal descent is because the United Synagogue won't allow them to.
I read an article by a Conservative rabbi that said despite C's numbers on paper, if you counted all of the C Jews who actually believe in and lived what the C movement preached, not only would it be smaller than Orthodoxy, it would be even smaller than some sub-sets of Orthodoxy (ie certain Hasidic groups.)
"An overwhelming majority of Conservative Jews have no idea what the theology/expectations of C Judaism are and the only reason they say that they are Conservative is because the temple they belong to is." Anon., if my personal experience as a lifelong memeber of Conservative synagogues is any indication, I think that you may very well be correct. People who actually believe that they're good Conservative Jews just because they show up in shul three days a year, light a "menorah" (chanukiah) attend a Seder, and keep a kosher kitchen are certainly good illustrations of the problem. Nu, what happened to the rest of the year and the rest of Jewish observance?
"I read an article by a Conservative rabbi that said despite C's numbers on paper, if you counted all of the C Jews who actually believe in and lived what the C movement preached, not only would it be smaller than Orthodoxy, it would be even smaller than some sub-sets of Orthodoxy (ie certain Hasidic groups.)"
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised. In terms of belief, I, myself, have half a foot in the agnostic camp, and, in terms of observance, I'm still traveling on Shabbat(Sabbath) and festivals. Yet I'm probably one of the most observant members of my local Conservative synagogue. That doesn't say much for either me or my sister and fellow congregants.
"I'm still traveling on Shabbat(Sabbath) and festivals."
Shira, the official C position is that one is allowed to travel to and from shul (and nowhere else) on Shabbat/Yom Tov so that certainly isn't beyond the pale.
However, ironically, most people I know that are very strict about the fact that their driving on Shabbat is ONLY to shul and back and nowhere else go to Orthodox shuls.
"Shira, the official C position is that one is allowed to travel to and from shul (and nowhere else) on Shabbat/Yom Tov so that certainly isn't beyond the pale."
Well, yes and no--I don't think that the official Conservative position is that one is permitted bypass a shul that's within walking distance and drive/take public transportation to another shul.
"ironically, most people I know that are very strict about the fact that their driving on Shabbat is ONLY to shul and back and nowhere else go to Orthodox shuls."
Anon., that *is* ironic.
"In the past there were more Conservative rabbis, but when the old guard died off, they were replaced be people who grew up Conservative in name only."
I'm not so sure that age is the determining factor. Two of my former rabbis, both graduates of the Jewish Theological Seminary and both younger than I, are observant in a manner barely distinguishable from Orthodox.
JTS's slide from Orthodoxy -> Conservative theology, Orthoprax behavior -> Left Leaning Conservative -> let's battle the Reform Movement for the hearts and souls of childless gay couples that attend a Buddhist Temple was a slow and steady decline (and while that last example is intentional hyperbole, I was merely focused on their 2020 position papers).
I would guess that most Rabbis that attended JTS before the early 1980s would have attended when Conservative families that they grew up in kept a Kosher kitchen and generally went to Shul pretty regularly. At that time, the mainstream Orthodox family was also pretty American as well, and maybe kept a little Shabbat, but the big cultural dividing lines were Mechitza, etc.
Sometime in the 1980s, JTS took a MAJOR swing to the left. Now it's not that rare for a Conservative Temple to hire a Reform Rabbi, but 20 years ago, that would be rare but hiring an Orthodox Rabbi wouldn't be.
Ironically, as the Orthodox institutions have been RUNNING to the right, the Conservative Movement has been sliding to the left. It's a shame JTS doesn't have their act together, because I think that there is a pretty decent sized group of people that are:
1) Ashkenazi and distinctly NOT Chabad
2) Believe that ideally, a Jew should keep Kosher and Shabbat (theologically Conservadox)
3) Happily American and participating in American life
4) Are proud, Zionistic Jews, but do NOT define their entire life in religious terms
That Conservadox Core has nowhere to go as Chareidi Rabbanim capture MO institutions and the Conservative Movement runs to the left.
The Conservative Core were families that were theologically mostly Orthodox and in practice weren't interested. Reform Jews don't really think that they should keep Shabbat, Conservative Jews do, in as much as they think about it, but don't have an interest in it.
Orthdoxy is run from it's rightwing, Conservative from it's leftwing. YCT/JTS seems to be in a relatively similar place but are WAY TOO Academic to be of interest.
That last comment should be YCT / UTJ, NOT JTS... the RW Breakoff of the Conservative movement, not the left wing Conservative seminary.
"there is a pretty decent sized group of people that are:
1) Ashkenazi and distinctly NOT Chabad
2) Believe that ideally, a Jew should keep Kosher and Shabbat (theologically Conservadox)
3) Happily American and participating in American life
4) Are proud, Zionistic Jews, but do NOT define their entire life in religious terms
That Conservadox Core has nowhere to go as Chareidi Rabbanim capture MO institutions and the Conservative Movement runs to the left."
Yep, that's me.
""there is a pretty decent sized group of people that are:
1) Ashkenazi and distinctly NOT Chabad
2) Believe that ideally, a Jew should keep Kosher and Shabbat (theologically Conservadox)
3) Happily American and participating in American life
4) Are proud, Zionistic Jews, but do NOT define their entire life in religious terms"
Years ago, many people like this still went to Orthdox shuls, and switch the word Ashkenazi for Sephardi and you will find that a MAJORITY still do.
I have NEVER understood this need for American Jews to invent new "streams" or "movments." Even if one is not 100% observant, if one cares about being Jewish, why not just go to a traditional normal shul instead of one that has all of these kinds of bizarre inventions/innovations.
Growing up in South Florida, I knew MANY foreign born (usually South American) Jews, who while not observant by Orthodox standards, still had some limits to what they would do on Shabbat, ate only kosher meat (veggie and dairy out were fine)but also were not shomer negiah, never bentched, etc. But on holidays, for life cycle events such as bar mitzvah or aufruf, or the occasional Shabbat they felt like going to shul, they would never consider for a second going to a non-Orthodox shul. They barely recognized a difference between Conservative and Reform and the idea of going to a shul with no mechitzah struck them as laughable at best, offensive at worst.
"Years ago, many people like this still went to Orthdox shuls, and switch the word Ashkenazi for Sephardi and you will find that a MAJORITY still do."
So I've heard.
My personal perspective is that there are both advantages and disadvantages to "big-tent," inclusive Orthodoxy. On one hand, it certain enhances the sense of unity, of Am Echad, one people, if we all pray in the same (type of) synagogue. On the other hand, what would be the point of me becoming Orthodox and, thus, giving up the privilege of leading the Musaf Kedushah just to end up in a synagogue in which a noticeable percentage of the membership is no more observant than the membership of the synagogues that I currently attend?
Anonymous,
Correct, on the Sephardic and South American Ashkenazi side, that remains the case. However, the American Ashkenazim of European vintage, the only people affiliated with Orthodoxy are increasingly Orthodox observant people.
This has been a tremendous disservice to Orthodoxy, which has managed to plunge into insular group think because they only interact with people just like them and has reduced the raw numbers from which they could draw for communal needs.
Shira, you are just a statistical anomaly... knowledgable, largely observant, egalitarian woman. If you were 30 years younger, you'd be a JTS grad, instead, just a self taught knowledgable woman.
"This has been a tremendous disservice to Orthodoxy, which has managed to plunge into insular group think because they only interact with people just like them and has reduced the raw numbers from which they could draw for communal needs."
I hadn't thought of it from that angle, but it's true that the increasing fragmentation of the Jewish community leaves smaller and smaller groups trying to meet the needs of the same or an increasing number of individuals. Smaller groups may be friendlier, but they can get overworked and/or overwhelmed pretty easily. "Big-tent" Judaism does have the advantage of putting more hands on the same deck.
Hmm, I reread that comment and realized that I'd missed something. "Insular group think" can create real problems. The old joke that a Jew who's more observant than I am is a fanatic and a Jew who's less observant than I am is a heretic becomes a lot less funny when such thinking starts to be applied to conversions, for example. When the idea that different interpretations can be equally valid--"elu va-elu divrei Elokim chaim, these and those are the words of the living G-d"--gets replaced by "my way or the highway," we end up with, for example, Jews not wanting to marry each other because the guy wears a kippah instead of a black hat or the woman intends to wear a hat instead of a sheitel/wig after marriage, or, in the case of the non-Orthodox, because one prospective partner eats in non-kosher restaurants and the other doesn't. Some of these differences in practice can be worked around--*if* we're willing. Years ago, two friends of ours--one Reform, one Conservative--agreed to get married on condition that they keep a kosher home for the Conservie while ignoring what the Reformie ate "out." Last I heard, they're still married, over thirty years later. :)
"Shira, you are just a statistical anomaly... knowledgable, largely observant, egalitarian woman."
I would prefer to think that being a knowledgeable, largely observant egalitarian woman doesn't make me a statistical anomaly, but my experienced has been pretty mixed. :(
"If you were 30 years younger, you'd be a JTS grad, instead, just a self taught knowledgable woman."
I applied to the (Reform) Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion's School of Sacred Music (recently renamed the Debbie Friedman School) a little over 30 years ago because the Jewish Theological Seminary's Cantorial School wasn't admitting women at the time. Unfortunately, methinks my voice was deemed "not ready for prime time"--which was, I'm sorry to say, probably true--and I don't think they were too happy when I said that I would insist on wearing a tallit, which was, at that time, still banned for both men and women in some Reform synagogues.
For the record, I've never been interested in becoming a rabbi (rabba, maharat . . .)--I'd much rather sing than study. I'm much more interested in learning liturgy and Jewish music than in mastering Gemarah and halachah. My husband is the studious one.
The Reform Cantorial program is now 5 or 6 years, not sure. That might be a fun retirement project for you, particularly if they'll let you join in on a non matriculating basis.
A Masters of Sacred Music might be the coolest sounding degree title in the world. :) I have a friend with one of those, I travel in diverse circles.
The lack of intermarriage problem is going to cause HUGE genetic problems as more and more Orthodox communities de facto shut down conversion.
I'm more concerned on the Group Think issue. The European leadership was generally against leaving Europe for America between the Wars for fear of assimilation.
Clearly, in retrospect, that was a TERRIBLE decision.
The current Jewish economic model is ever increasing Jewish education, inherently a good thing, but with larger families starting earlier, is a financial disaster. Read some of the threads on Orthonomics, we're going to raid the Silver Cabinet to pay for one more semester of Day School.
Group think is VERY dangerous, because you ignore threats and don't adapt to changes well.
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